More real estate lunacy!
In an effort to curb fraud our area of Cook County has enacted a
new law that to me has gone totally over the top! In order to close on a home, the seller must put his fingerprint on the title document which then gets transferred to the buyer. Typical 'give me your thumb please and press here' only there are no police present.
Has fraud gotten that out of control?
Normally at a closing the sellers and buyers present the title officer their drivers licenses or any form of official identification at the closing. This is to ensure identity for the title officer who also has to certify the signatures on those documents.
So last Wednesday my first seller had to 'press here please'. He thought it was normal and offered up his poor thumb promptly.
I guess it will be the new norm as of today!
It was bound to happen.
That's all I can say. I wonder if this move was instigated by an MI company?
Disgusting! Sad! Because the end does NOT justify the means.
Benjamin Franklin said:
When a people trade liberty for security- they deserve neither.
Lyn,
Illinois, but in particular the County of Cook in Illinois has stooped to yet another low level of lunacy all under the guise of consumer protection.
What bothers me more is that our professional organizations seem to not be able to bridle the beast of personal invasaion under the guise of consumer protection....
Not that sad, and not that strange.
I heard about a recent closing where the sellers were asked for their Driver's Licenses as ID... the husband produced his, and the wife said "mine is in the car"... the title agent insisted that she needed the wife's too. The husband asked, "Can't you just manage with mine... I'll vouch for her"...
The title agent insisted... they both left for the car to retrieve her license, and neither of them returned.
What was happening here? The husband was trying to sell the house out from under his wife. The woman with him at the closing was his GIRLFRIEND, and they were going to take the money and scoot for white-sandy-beaches unknown. The wife didn't even know the property was for sale, let alone sold.
Fingerprints are a good idea.
In California the only requirement is a signature produced by the individual in the presence of a notary. But the notary usually will take a fingerprint into their notary journal.
Lyn.. I have to say I agree with Nester's comment. Ben Franklin had it right. Here we think we *have* freedom... when we are loosing it so quickly.
Alan, a good story that we've all heard but is it really true? Your realtor would know who you are if you are a seller or a buyer and in most cases so would your attorney. Maybe for FSBO's? In that particular example you gave, do you think that guy really cares if he gets fingerprinted? He's already that far with the ruse.
I don't think that there is that much fraud for the fingerprinting to stop.
Lenn: Thanks for your input.
Katerina: Agreed. Enough is enough.
I wish they would focus on airports with this instead of real estate. Maybe a thumbprint on record or an iris scan would get me through security faster.
Lyn.. I can say that I do NOT agree to this at all. A driver's license should suffice.
Up until about a 6-12 months ago, an person could get a driver's license in MD without I.D.
What a strange development that is! And I'm confused why it wouldn't be the buyer's thumbprint needed since it seemed like fraud was more usually on the buyer's end?? I'm curious what things had happened that this is meant to correct.
I have expierienced that time and time again. I sold a house in Cook County and had to do it and wasn't too happy about the title company, county, and whoever else now having my fingerprints on record. Not that I have anything to worry about it is just not that comforting especially in Chicago.
Lyn- If your sellers are ever uncomfortable with it the title company will accept a Resolution (drawn up by an attorney) with the seller authorizing someone else to sign and fingerprint on there behalf. Whoever the seller ellects must sign all the other documents for them too though.
One of my agents was fingerprinted by the bank when he went to cash his commission check. I was standing right next to him.
On the ground, they excercise amazing caution.
When it comes to investing billions, they are irresponsible gamblers.
I don't like this one bit, just like I don't like the full body scanners at airports, or the idea of microchipping children, or the government taking a sample of one's DNA for any reason other than a criminal investigation. I think it's crossing boundaries, and I know there are plenty of people who would disagree with me, but I would rather the government err on the side of NOT doing enough than doing too much. And I think this is too much. I really feel like the government is too involved in the right to property ownership as it is.
Lyn: I totally understand your frustration ... but I believe the answer to your question about fraud is .. yes. Sad, but true. We HAVE come to this. Unfortunately, this has happened enough times where the powers to be believe it necessary. And to address the second issue ... it's not always the case that the representatives within the transaction know the buyers and sellers that well. Whether liked or approved of here on AR or with agents across the nation, professionals involved in a deal are not always located within the state, ala' out-of-state lenders and etc. Again, I understand the frustration and dislike of this action ... but sadly acknowledge that in today's age ... it might be necessary.
Gene
Lyn, Alan's scenario has happened many times across the nation. All it takes in a cooperating or negligent escrow agent and/or notary to enable fraud to run rampant. I have closed hundreds of loans with mobile notaries (having worked for a very large internet lender) and there was no way we would have known if the peeps were real. I would not be surprised if this becomes an industry standard.
Lynn,
I closed a home 2 weeks ago and my sellers were asked to do this. I was blown away! Most of my closings are Lake County so this was new to me. What next? Mug shots?
Actually, fingerprinting does NO good if there's not a certified database to check it against. It goes no further to prove who someone is than a driver's license by itself. Another case of government at work trying to fix a problem without thinking it all the way through. "But we're doing something to fix it, LOOK at this fingerprinting verification process!"
So far this practice hasn't spilled over into Will County.
Hey, I had to be fingerprinted and pass an FBI background check to be a real estate agent in California. So what? Besides, sellers have to be fingerprinted to get their deeds notarized in California. What's the difference if a seller provides a thumb print to a notary or a thumb print on a deed?
My husband, a former Chicagoan, says the real reason that Cook County now requires thumbprints is because somebody owns a thumbprinting business who is related to somebody who serves on the Cook County Board.
I agree with you and Shannon at her comment and don't like this Cook County govt. regulation requiring fingerprints by sellers at closing of RE deal. There are better ways to assure that sellers are who they say they are. Here in California the county recorder's office requires that a deed of transfer be notarized.
The notary requirement at real estate closing would be easier, probably more accurate, and would catch more wrongdoers than fingerprinting.
Deborah: That is indeed scary that you've closed that many loans and not knowing if the people were legitimate. Internet borrowing should be the one looked at the most because no one ever meets each other until the closing.
Lenn: That is true with many states about the DL's. In IL you have to bring 2 forms of paperwork with the new address but what if you're not the real person?
Corinne: Your mug shot is your drivers license in IL! At least mine is LOL.
Elizabeth: Could be but maybe a fingerprint recognition company. What database get's checked?
Nancy: You said it best I think - who's supposed to be committing all the mortgage fraud? Usually the buyer & they aren't getting fingerprinted.
California requires a finger print when there is a notorization required. Not sure that is much different than the requirement in Illinois. Interesting that is has been going on for quite some time here and has just become the norm. I guess the thought is if it stops one fraudulent transaction from happening than it is worth it. That being said and as you stated in your piece, "he offered up his poor thumb promptly" meaning he didn't even ask why! When people stop questioning we give up the right to know.
Harrison: We have everything notorized too. Maybe there was a small white blank portion on the deed that needed filling? Somone said, let's require fingerprints!
Hi Lyn, I blogged about this in March '09 and apparently this took affect June '09. In my post I offered suggestions for even better methods of recordations. Thumbs Up in Cook County.
Lyn - fraud happens everyone pays. I see it as a good thing because now it will keep everyone straight.
Given Cook county politics (and Illinois), I think Elizabeth's remarks above (#20) probably come closest to the truth. (Just speculation on my part, but... if it quacks like a duck...).
I think the idea of using 1 ID for everything is AWESOME and I've talked about it over the years with attorneys and with security people. I am told the ultimate identifier is an eye-scan. No more signing all the individual papers at the closing - just an eye-scan and you are DONE! No more losing IDs or having it stolen. I think it's the future!
Carla: LOL, great post. It didn't evidently take effect until June 1st of this year. Eye retina scans would probably be the way to go. As I have wondered though, what database are they checking for fingerprints? You might be a felon but you can still sell a house in Cook County. Probably all the Cook County Board commissions are fingerprinted for that reason also.
Maria: Well, get prepared if you step out of DuPage.
As Realtors we had to start doing this 2 years ago and I think it is a good safety measure!
Wow that is interesting. I remember the first time a bank wanted me to put my thumb print on a check. I think this is starting to get a little out of control though.
Fingerprinting goes too far...wouldn't an owner's title policy cover the buyer should the seller commit fraud in the sale of their home?
I have heard of a few other companies thinking of doing something simalar
Lyn,
Hasn't started here but I'm sure it will. I would have no problem providing my print because I know I'm not up to anything questionable. If it helps fight fraud, I'm glad to give my thumbs up!
Our California notaries require proof of identity and a fingerprint when signing a document. We have all heard stories about fraud and husband/wives having their "friends' pretend to be the signing off spouse. In my opinion, I think it makes sense in today's world. Susan
Bill or Mr. Fish: Watch out they'll be fingerprinting everything soon!
Irene: I don't ever mind cooperating against fraud but someone brought up a good point about there being more buyer fraud then seller. Sellers don't do fraudulent loans.
Dan: Good point, maybe the title companies instituted this?
I thought New York was the only state with crazy ideas
The day they start asking for urine specimens is the day I'm leaving the business!
Richard: Too incriminating for Cook County officials.
Lyn, that is amazing. I had not heard of that being done anywhere.
What data base are they checking?? Good question, Lyn!! Can it be because they can't forge a fingerprint?? But again, what's the point if they don't check it against anything.
P.S. I stand corrected on dates. I wonder where I got 2009?? Hmmm. . . just ahead of my time?!?
Hi Lyn~ I had to be fingerprinted to get my RN license and my real estate license for KY. I guess it is a sign of the times. I hate that it has come to this!
Lyn: I guess I don't blink at anything anymore ... as just before I read this I had come back into my office after getting fingerprinted for my L.O. license. As Vickie in #42 says ... just a sign of the times?
Gene
Thank you for sharing this post on Active Rain. Crazy... soon we'll have to give a tissue sample.
Lynn: Just think how many new jobs politician relatives only need to apply this new system will create...
Hmm... after all we are talking about CROOK COOK County...
Great post.
Halina: Yes, only in Crook County.
Gene: See, now it's for your license too. I can see that but again what database is it being ENTERED into? What database do they check? Never any mention of that.
I haven't seen that yet around here and frankly it bothers me!
Why dont we all get to the part where we have chips implanted already.....this is scary......