This is a follow up post from a phone call and then another phone call from Zillow to me on a previous post I did just a few weeks ago. 'The Ruckus'
Zillow provided a data table on my Schaumburg IL area stating the Year over Year market change (-5.8%) which I was in total disagreement with. I provided closed figures that proved them wrong in my area with the current MLS stats. The info that Zillow is using is such an unbelievably broad territory it's going beyond ridiculous. There wasn't any way that I could find (Google Earth) what would show you how large the area is except to say probably half of Delaware! It encompassed the entire City of Chicago, Northern IL with Naperville and Joliet to the south, Indiana (parts?), and Wisconsin (parts?). But we all know that all real estate is Local. That each individual market is different - sometimes even subdivision to subdivision. So what's with those figures?
Does Zillow want to perpetuate a negative marketplace?
Let's get back to those numberz again - the MLS stats that Zillow does not have. Again I asked the question, where does Zillow get it's numberz? No exact answer, too much reply.
A thought ~~ If Realtors do 80% of the business then they would have the majority of closed sales data in the MLS, not to mention the most up to date. I know that at any given time I can go to the MLS in my area and pull up CURRENT UP TO THE MINUTE SALES stats for my area. My numbers were also verified by other agents in my office just to be sure that the info I provided was totally correct. But Zillow doesn't belong to our MLS? Hmmm.....
SO WHAT SAY YOU ON A COUPLE OF POINTS ~~
1) I do not believe that I should have received 'harassment' like phone calls from a Zillow coordinator to 'change my numberz'. I thought that we were not to contact each other in a harassing manner for any reason no matter what the disagreement. AR, thru email contact and phone, did not seem to feel that this was at all serious. Hope your seeing what I mean here!
Not to mention that the post had seen alot of activity saying that Zillow's numberz were not correct in my area would basically give them bad press and a black eye. Wouldn't I change my mind?
2) There is no contact phone number for the Zillow coordinator in his AR profile. There is no business address of a brick and mortar building listed on his profile - why not? Doesn't seem like good business ethics on the part of AR to let that slip by. Just curious as to why you wouldn't provide all your contact info?
3) I really love AR and all the great contacts and info I've received since joining. But I would have to say I was deeply upset at the corporate response in this regard. No policing, heck I read them the rules from the website! Maybe it's just because I'm a women and someone tried to ruffle my 'Midwest Feathers' and make me knuckle under that I mostly object too. We are all entitled to our opinions no matter what they are.
So here comes another black eye Zillow!
Lyn Sims at RE/MAX Suburban (847)230-7324 Northwest Suburban Chicago IL areas of Schaumburg, Hoffman Estates, Elk Grove Village, Roselle, Medinah, Itasca, Bloomingdale, Carol Stream, Bartlett, Hanover Park, Streamwood, Elgin, South Elgin, St Charles.
Give em HELL Lyn. The response you got was totally out of line. I keep haering about these clowns...Who are they??? I am going to check into this a lot more!!!
I'm sure that once you investigate them in your own area Bill you can make up your mind then.
Lyn -
I phoned you because it's often easier to resolve misunderstandings over the phone. I wish you could have shown me the same courtesy but you didn't bother to return my calls (I did leave you my number.) I will not call you again but please let me try one last time to clarify the correction I requested ...
1) I certainly did not ask you to "change your numbers". You can obviously report whatever you want about your market. I did ask you to correct Zillow's numbers which you incorrectly reported.
2) Your original blog post still incorrectly suggests that Zillow's data says that your market fell by "5% a quarter in the Midwest?" That statement is incorrect and it's the simple reason that I've been trying to get hold of you. That is Zillow's number for the year, not for the quarter. I honestly do not understand why you won't make this correction. Ironically, in this blog post you get it right when you report that "Zillow provided a data table on my Schaumburg IL area stating the Year over Year market change (-5.8%)." If that was how your first post read I would stop asking you to correct it. It's frankly astonishing that you'd let such a minor issue escalate to this point.
3) In a follow-up post, you accused Zillow of not analyzing local home value trends in Schaumberg. You were again incorrectly reporting on Zillow's home value reports which are in fact very granular; available all the way down to the Zip code level. I can't seem to find that post; if you deleted it, I must say; "Thank You"
David Gibbons - 206-470-7168
Thank you David for your comments - they are welcome and only serve to validate my points on your behavior. Please read the attached AR Guidelines which can be viewed in their entirety at the bottom of this post.
I obviously disagree with Zillow's numbers and will continue to do so 'zealously'. I have my numbers and you indeed have yours.
I will mention to future sellers your published -5.8% price decline and 'minor issue' on every listing appointment that I attend in the future. The public will decide if your numbers are valuable or not. That's OK Mr. Public let's just slice off 5.8% of your homes value - no problem.
Lyn -
Please READ my comment. You continue to misunderstand my request to correct your post.
I don't plan to call you again but please do ask the AR-gods if they agree with your assesment of their terms of use. They should tell you that your blog posts about Zillow started the conversation that I am trying to have with you. Being accountable for what you write is just one of the many responsibilities that come with blogging.
Please, reconsider calling me.
Lyn,
We do not consider David contacting you to be harassment or a violation of our community guidelines. He made one phone call to you, after each post you made about Zillow only after it was clear you were losing each other in the comments. Had he continously attempted to contact you, I could certainly understand how that would be harassment. However, as he mentions earlier, he simply thought that the misunderstanding could be cleared up easier if you had the opportunity to speak. He contacted us here at ActiveRain and I suggested that a phone call may be in order to clear up the misunderstanding over your reporting of Zillow's numbers. Your original blog post reported a quarterly changes of 5% when in fact Zillow was reporting a yearly change. To me that seems like a misunderstanding and it would seem that you would want to correct that misunderstanding for the benefit of your readers.
It is obvious that you have no intentions of clearing up the misunderstanding. and would just assume agree that you both disagree on the facts. I'm sure David is OK agreeing to disagree, however, please do not insinuate, or outright say that David is harassing you. It was two phone calls (one after each post about Zillow) whereby he was simply trying to ask that you correct inaccurate statements, that's all.
The people at Zillow are very accomodating to criticism, and openly engage the real estate community, of which they are a part. You can contact any and all of their team by calling the Zillow office. If David chooses not to put his phone number on his profile, that is his choice, just as many others have choosen to do. I'm sorry you don't feel as if it's "good business ethics" on our part to allow him to participate without a phone number.
In all of my dealings with David Gibbons and the rest of the team at Zillow, they have been very professional, friendly and forthright.
You are most correct that you are entitled to your opinion, however when you put out facts that others have reported and you mis-report those facts, you should be open to making amends to correct those errors.
Sorry guys but I have to agree with Lyn. The calls were unsolicited. Dispite the fact that Bob Stewart finds David Gibbons to be very professional does not excuse the fact he made phone calls when he should not have. I can't call him if puts in false information (not that he would) because he doesn't want unsolicited phone calls and doesn't afford me the same courtesy that I afford him. I think you all defend him too much. If that is the case everytime someone mistates or says something I don't agree with I can call them up. Don't think so.
Thanks Denise for understanding what I was trying to present. I appreciate your comments & insite. The phone calls were unwelcome & unsolicited.
I stand totally behind my numbers. Where do you get your numbers from? What feeds, what public records?
These are MLS numbers that any Realtor or board member can check.
I noticed that your question is still not answered.
If one is going to pick up the phone and answer questions from "misunderstandings" I don't understand why a phone number cannot be listed on their profiles. These are public blogs, I say clear the misunderstandings in the blog and answer the questions. You actually make yourself look worse by not answering the questions or skirting around the answer.
I hate it when someone emails me to debate me about something I wrote in their blog. Either delete the comment or debate with me, not that hard.
I will stay tuned and see how many licks it takes to get to the center of the tootsie roll tootsie pop. Maybe they will let us know if they deduct for concessions too.
Not holding my breath.
Interesting. Zillow is hardly in a position to request that any person, REALTOR or otherwise, correct numbers.
Their fatally flawed numbers are a constant thorn in the side of any agent or broker providing services to the home buying or selling consumer. Zillow is just one more barrier to listing or selling real estate.
Zillow is not a legitimate source of real estate information. But, then neither are all of the web sites that promise the public that they will refer the "best agent". They don't know what a "best agent" is. Wait!! The "best agent" is the agent that subscribes to the service. Or, they give free listings to the "best agents" to populate their web site and sell advertising. Zip Realty, Lowes, etc. pay big money to advertise on Zillow. Zillow uses agent content and their purported valuations to attract viewers. It's a tried and true system.
My thought would be to not speak with them at all. What is there to say. I would suggest that if there is a factual error in your posts, if you understand the matter that they claim was incorrect, to simply delete that portion of the post. Not in the interest of satisfying Zillow, but in the interest of accuracy. If there are, in your opinion, no errors, just ignore them.
I think that they had a lot of nerve to contact you directly. Or, is nerve the proper description. Perhaps it was a belief that you would be intimated. That would be my guess.
Fact is, real estate valuations is a very "hands on" skill. There has not been an algorithm that can do what a third year listing agent can do better.
Renee - are you talking to me? If so, please let me know what question you're referring to.
Lenn - No-one at Zillow asked Lyn to correct her numbers. I asked her to correct our number which she reported incorrectly. Do you understand the difference?
Lenn, this is twisting & turning the issue to it's best, I think it's called SPIN. Thank you so much for insight & your comments.
Renee: I'm thinkin' he's pickin a fight with you now. Let's see if he calls you to discuss it. Your opinion on the issue is also valuable to everyone on AR.
My #1 question has still not be answered from any Zillow Coordinator yet - WHERE DO YOUR NUMBERS COME FROM? What feed? What site?
Lynn - so sorry - I actually did explain where these numbers came from in my reply to Denise & Bob on your previous post but I understand if you missed it.
The quarterly home value reports that Zillow publishes are our estimate of the annual change in the value of the median valued home in the area in question. To calculate the change in value for zip codes, neighborhoods, cities and counties, we use the median Zestimate value. For MSA's we use a weighted calculation of the value from the counties (weighted according to the number of homes in each county.) If you need more background on how Zestimates are calculated, you'll find it here.
The strength of this approach is two-fold;
So, how does Zillow's method compare to traditional methods for calculating home value trends? There are two more or less standard approaches to reporting home value trends; index calculations and median sales value analysis. There are two blog posts I recommend reading that explain how Zillow's approach compares to each. First, Zillow's home value reports correlate very closely with the Case Schiller index but not with the OFHEO index (for good reasons.) In the next post, Dr Stan Humphries explains why the traditional median sales price analysis is often skewed by the constant change in the mix of the types of homes that have sold.
Let me know if this triggers any further questions.
Do you get them from tax records? I still don't know if that is an answer to the question above.
David: Renee is asking where the sales records that Zillow compiles come from?
Hmmm interesting debate. Just based on the interaction here I would love to know the answer to the direct question.
Where does Zillow get its data from???
"Where does Zillow get its data from???"
Raw data used to calculate Zestimate values and thereby the Zillow Market Value reports is primarily from public real estate records. The home facts on Zillow are now also supplemented by additional info from owners and agents. We start with a tax assessor's record and use it to create a property record in Zillow's database and place the home on our maps etc. We then continuously collect sales transaction data, or at least our data providers collect the sales data from county recorders' offices across the country. This data typically includes all the RE transactions in the county (and has to be scrubbed for non-arms-length sales etc.) Fresh home facts and sales data is uploaded daily and we currently publish new Zestimate values two to three times a week. The Zillow Market Reports are published quarterly.
WoW.... Stick to your guns !
Thank you Roland for your comment & input.
Thank you David for finally giving us the answer. I appreciate your candor. We have been waiting for your response.
NOW MY REBUTTAL TO BOB STEWART OF AR - The question was sent to you on ticket #35204 which no one responded to, so then I called AR & spoke directly with you. Rich Jacobson wrote in the ticket that:
"You're right in that our guidelines state that disputes should be handled through of 'Contact AR System'. I think David Gibbons was simply frustrated that you refused to amend your article. I will contact him & request that he not contact you further."
That did not happen. You or Rich did not follow thru I believe & tell David Gibbons I did not wish to be contacted AT ANY TIME by phone. I followed what I thought were the GUIDELINES OF CONTACT ON AR by telling you first what was going on.
Just because this gentlemen was frustrated does not give him the right to contact me by phone, unsolicited. Denise Allen made a great point - everytime I disagree with someone I should call them up? It's not good business. I think now that we should open it up on the topic of contact.
SHOULD ZILLOW HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO CONTACT ME DIRECTLY? We could like your opinion.
hhhhmmm .. interesting.... first off, if you get your data from public records is not a good way, especially if older than a year. Why do you think appraisal guidelines from lenders say...... comps less than 6 months old and 1 miles or less. Because real estate is local, very local.
Secondly, I wrote a post about Zillow and it's mortgage lead generator. A day later, David contacted me also, asking that I give it a shot, and hopefully repost something good about Zillow. I agree, debate it in the comments for all to see. I don't call people up either... I ask them the question within the comments. I was never politically correct.
Overall, not trying to ruffling the feathers, but stating true facts.
You go girl!! Very interesting debate here!
Thank you Jeff for taking the time to 'debate an issue in the comments' on the above subject. Possibly AR should look to their own guidelines & just enforce them. A phone call was just too aggressive & others have also agreed. The guidelines take a more 'amiable approach' of no contact then a phone call to change your post.
I would like to add an interesting update to my previous Zillow Post and this one from Jim Ludes that I think you should all be made aware of. Jim has done us all a great favor & actually calculated some great numbers - lets just call them mizzzztakes. 5 - 20 - 50% error groups in Zillow. E-Gadzzzz. Check it out for yourself!